“What Can We Do About Corruption?”
A conversation between Prof. Rasma Karklins and Amb. Ints Silins,
recorded in Riga, Latvia on 12 September 2008
Amb. Silins: Professor Kalnins, your book on corruption in the post-communist societies with the catchy title, “The System Made Me Do It,” was first published in 2005. In it, you examine both the causes and some of the possible cures for corruption. The book is detailed and comprehensive, but could you highlight some of its most important conclusions?
Prof. Karklins: I think most important is that corruption can be contained; that there are many institutional and strategic ways to limit it; and that there is no need to be fatalistic, as many people tend to be in this region. So there is indeed quite a bit that can be done, and Delna and other civic organizations in the region have proven that.
Are your views now the same as they were when you finished the book?
Yes, very much so.
Did you find in writing this book that there is a particularly “post-communist” cause for corruption; and if so, shouldn’t this by now have dissipated in this area?
I’m surprised myself that legacies of the soviet period are so persistent. One reason is that the people now in charge of events are between the ages of 40 and 55, and they obviously were socialized in the soviet period. So I think that is a core reason, plus we find that many soviet legacies such as personal networks do survive.
Why do you think it should matter to people who spend most of their time in America what the level of corruption is in the Baltic States?
These days corruption, as many other types of crime, is global. It is international in various ways. First of all it affects international business and international cultural exchanges, but most importantly perhaps for the U.S., there are people who visit or who are migrants who bring corruption with them, so I think it is urgent that it be seen in this international context.
Won’t the level of corruption in the Baltic States decline more or less automatically as the institutions of democracy and the free market strengthen?
No, unfortunately I don’t think this happens by itself. Anticorruption experts in this region have even noted that many of the types of corruption have become more sophisticated, more difficult to fight, and more entrenched. So it could even be seen as the opposite – it is becoming a more complicated phenomenon.
Is this phenomenon more or less uniform across the three Baltic States -- Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania -- or can you distinguish between them as to the forms of corruption you find there?
No, I think the basic patterns are very much the same. I'm always surprised to hear about countries that are beyond the Baltics, such as Bulgaria, where I’ll travel in two weeks for the presentation of the Bulgarian translation of my book. Now that I've been learning more about Bulgarian corruption, as I read about it I find that it's very much the same as if I'm here. This is one of the arguments I've been making, that it's a legacy of both the communist period plus the very unusual transition away from the old regime.
I’m very grateful that you agreed to serve as an advisor to the USBF’s Good Governance Initiative (BGGI). May I now ask for your first bit of advice? How do you think we should shape this program so as to have the maximum useful impact in all three Baltic States? Is it possible to list the top three or four things that USBF can do to reduce the sort of corruption that is to be found in the Baltic area?
There are some top things that ought to be done. One of them is to work with young people. I already pointed out that the governing generation now is sort of stuck in its ways, so you have to work with the younger generation. I also think it's very important to highlight anticorruption success stories in some way because many people are very cynical about the chances to contain corruption. Later on I'll specify some more aspects. I think it's very important also to showcase the positive sides of integrity and accountability as much as the negative: to show what is the advantage of being supportive of the public good and integrity.
As you perhaps know, the USBF Board agreed that the first priority for BGGI would be to lend a helping hand to existing anticorruption organizations in the Baltic States and in the first instance to Delna, the Latvian chapter of Transparency International. You and I both have long been supporters of Delna; you are currently on its board and I used to be. Can you tell us how you perceive Delna’s role and how it has evolved during its first ten years?
First of all, it should be highlighted that Delna has been recognized as the most effective branch of Transparency International in the region. It has accomplished a lot over these ten years, both in publicizing issues linked to integrity plus in contributing proposals for legal and institutional changes. It has also had very effective young leaders. My view is that Delna has done fantastic work in itself, but one thing that I always like, and one reason why I support Delna as much as I can, is that it has always had among its ranks and among its leaders young people aged between 22 and 35, young legal experts, political scientists and others – just the type one would like to see promoted and supported, real enthusiasts who I see as the future politicians in this region.
Why shouldn’t organizations like Delna, if they are as effective as you say, be able to attract sufficient support from within their own country? Why should outsiders like the U.S.-Baltic Foundation become involved? Why are they needed?
Well, unfortunately many people and businesses within the region are afraid to openly support anticorruption efforts because of fears of reprisal. Specifically, firms are afraid that the tax inspectors will be sent after them or some clients will decline to work with them, so that's extremely problematic. We had the experience in Latvia, for example, that some newspapers listed people who donated to Delna and attacked them and sort of said – Well, where does this money come from? So people basically are afraid.
I think we agree that corruption can’t be significantly reduced just by strengthening enforcement mechanisms such as the police and the courts, important though that is. Also needed, I believe, is broad public acceptance of rules of good conduct and an end to that passivity toward corruption so well captured in your book’s title. But how can an organization like the U.S.-Baltic Foundation help to attain this?
Well, to follow up on my point about social attitudes that are rather widespread, I think that an organization such as the US Baltic foundation can work to make integrity and support for civil society and the public good a prestigious event, so as to put a positive highlight on such citizen behavior, for example by hosting prominent events that could involve fundraising, where the US has great experience. And make it a prestigious event, so that people feel they have to be there, and that would raise the issue of integrity being a positive thing.
BGGI will begin by working with and supporting existing Baltic organizations that are actively promoting good governance and civil society. What else do you think USBF could do?
I think that the U.S.-Baltic Foundation should focus on its specific strengths. One of them is that they can contact American companies or other representatives in the region and involve them in support activities, for example the local U.S. Chambers of Commerce. U.S. firms could be urged not only to donate money but to help Delna and other organizations become more socially visible and prominent. As I said, this is not only an issue of awareness-raising but also of lending prestige and acclaim to these activities.
One of the problems I've found over the years with fighting corruption seems to be the word itself. Many people shy away from it; it’s a very negative word. When naming our program at the USBF, we called it the “good governance” initiative but that doesn’t really capture the full range of activity that we’re interested in, which of course includes corruption in the private sector. Do you have any suggestions on terminology?
Well, as you've noted I use the term "integrity," and I also think it's important to be more precise about the meaning of "accountability," because that very much is the opposite of corruption. And I’ve recently begun to emphasize that people in this region have a limited understanding of the meaning of “public good” and involvement for the public good. I think that's a strength of Americans, that they've grown up with this notion, but I think it's important to find out that the public good is not just something that you sacrifice for, but it affects everybody. As I've argued, for example, it's a public good to have fewer traffic accidents. That means if you don't bribe traffic cops you contribute to the social good. I think it's important to point out this sort of positive outcome.
Another problem I've noticed over the years is that people in post-communist societies seem to have a little trouble with the very notion of civil society, where you have a whole network of organizations which represent different interests. Sometimes they are a countervailing power to government -- and that's the part that people find the most difficult. Do you think that's one reason why active support for anticorruption organizations is slow to develop?
Yes, definitely. As a political scientist I must say there are quite a few studies of this phenomenon, that people do not see that the state is made up basically of its citizens and citizen organizations. Their notion is more of a hierarchical bureaucracy that oppresses people. And then if civic organizations claim a role, they're suddenly seen as illegitimate contenders for power.
Have you or your friends had any personal experiences in the Baltic States that illustrate or dramatize the problem of corruption?
I would say that if you talk to anybody in the region, in Latvia and Estonia and Lithuania, people will have stories, either that they have experienced corruption personally or they know it from intimate friends and colleagues, so it's not that unusual. On top of that, the press has been vigilant in reporting such cases; unfortunately there's often no follow-up. But awareness of corruption is very widespread.
Isn't this one of those critical turning points, where the anticorruption organizations are losing the broad financial support that they began with -- that is, generous grants from groups like the Soros foundation and other institutions, which are reducing their support because they now think that these countries are sufficiently advanced not to need it. Isn't a gap developing where corruption could become really entrenched, because the organizations are becoming weak at a time when corruption is still very strong?
Yes, I think that's very true. We can see in Latvia that many very successful organizations have suffered from this donation gap, and also Delna specifically. There is an urgent need -- and I want to underline that this is one aspect where the American community is very strong, they can not only convince people of the need to donate but point the way how to do it. Because many of the local people are inexperienced in fundraising. Even simple things such as banquets or other fundraising techniques are not really well known here, and people are reluctant to engage in them. I should point out that often there are tax benefits. Delna is officially a charitable organization, so that donations to Delna enjoy tax benefits. Again, somehow people are not so aware of this aspect, which as we know makes a difference to charitable giving in the United States.
Professor Kalnins, are there any other organizations in addition to Delna that deal with issues like corruption, and if there are, what is Delna’s relationship to them?
Well, first of all, I've already mentioned that Delna is a branch of the international organization Transparency International, and it has some other very intense international ties. I myself have met Delna representatives at international anticorruption conferences, and that's a very important network. In Latvia itself there are several other groups, especially Providus, which is a public policy institute that has excellent analysts who have been dealing with corruption. And of course there is the anticorruption agency itself, KNAB, which is an official government organization that's been very active. Delna has had very good relations with this official institution.
What are some of the most pressing issues involving corruption in Latvia now?
As I just mentioned, Latvia has a state agency against corruption, KNAB, the Corruption Prevention and Reduction Agency. KNAB has been under great pressure, especially since last fall. Its very effective director, Loskutovs, was fired recently, so people in Latvia are very concerned that the anticorruption agency and other means of fighting crime and organized money laundering are being undermined. So I think the first need is to look carefully at attempts to pass laws that would facilitate money laundering and attempts to limit the effectiveness of the anticorruption agency.
If you're in the United States and you're looking to see how corruption is evolving, let's say in Latvia or in the Baltic states in general, are there things you could look for which are not entirely obvious that would give you an indication that something really wrong is going on?
Well, in Latvia it has been very open recently, as I say, with attacks on KNAB plus attempts to pass a strange law that would have helped people accused of money laundering to get off the hook. Those were stopped for the time being but the situation does not look very promising. One should note that Freedom House, which publishes rankings of the status of democracy, just ranked Latvia lower than the year before because of these scandals. So one can follow these events and react to international news reports with letters to the editor or something similar.
Thank you very much. I look forward to working with you as we develop the Baltic Good Governance Program.
Thank you.